Interview with Marc Laimon

Never shy to speak his mind, top jiu-jitsu instructor and Cobra Kai Jiu-Jitsu founder, Marc Laimon, shares his insight about a wide variety of topics, including, how he became interested in jiu-jitsu; what he thinks it takes to become a champion in the sport of MMA; who he thinks will win the upcoming fight between Nogueira and Mir; who the world’s best grapplers are and much more.

JR: How did you get your start in jiu-jitsu? What got you interested in it?

ML: I saw the first Ultimate Fighting Championship and saw jiu-jitsu and I dropped out of college with a 3.7 grade point average and moved to California and dedicated my life to it. By January 22, 2008, it will have been 13 years since I’ve been doing it.

JR: Did you start in traditional “Gi” jiu-jitsu?

ML: I started under Royce and Rorion Gracie in January 22, 1996.

JR: Did you finish college?

ML: No. I’ve been pretty much doing this [jiu-jitsu]; that’s all I do, and playing video games. That’s one of my passions in life.

JR: So you pretty much received your Masters and Doctorate in Brazilian jiu-jitsu?

ML: Something like that.

JR: Why did you decide to open up your own school?

ML: That’s about the only way to make money doing jiu-jitsu and having your own gym. I thought the time was right. I really do enjoy teaching a lot. I had lot of guys that I helped train out here in Vegas, and at that time, it was the right time to for things to happen; I was starting to get old and was looking out for the future.

So I decided to open up a gym. You can only go so far in submission wrestling. There’s nothing that really pays you a lot of money to live on so teaching and studying the knowledge is about the only way to sustain a living at it.

JR: Did the competitive nature necessary to do well in the grappling tournament environment come natural to you? Or was it something that took some getting used to?

ML: I was a pretty decent competitor and I just wanted to test myself and kind of build my name a little bit so when I opened a gym, people would know who I was and wasn’t a fraud or anything. It was just a good way to test myself and put into effect all the training I was doing and it gave me good short-term goals to try to accomplish.

It was real beneficial. Competition is good because you get to see what you’re made of under fire and duress and it kind of teaches you a lot about yourself and you start to formulate different techniques and deal with whatever problems you’re having in competition. It’s not for everybody and not everyone has to do it but you learn something about yourself win or lose. Overall, it’s a valuable tool for learning about one’s self.

JR: How did you decide on the name Cobra Kai?

ML: I think people take themselves way too seriously in martial arts and if you can’t laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at? A lot of people hate me in jiu-jitsu and I’m just kind of used to being the bad guy. So I wanted Cobra Kai to be a joke and it just kind of stuck and here we are today.

JR: Your students seem to be some of the most well-prepared competitors at grappling tournaments. What do you attribute that to?

ML: They just show up to class every day and a lot of the guys stay after class to work on their technique. They are a lot of like-minded individuals that like to test themselves and I think it’s more on them than anything else… they enjoy it and they’re going to do it to the best of their ability. And they get lucky too.

JR: I remember seeing a lot of your guys at Best of the West in Long Beach in 2006 and they just seemed to have an edge on a lot of the competitors.

ML: I think a lot of our guys focus on a few techniques and everybody is different but we work on a few techniques that if we get those techniques on people there’s a pretty good chance it’s going to get finished and that’s what we try to do and it seems to be working pretty well so far.

JR: That day one of your guys was competing in a Superfight against one of the Gracies’ and I remember you being quite outspoken against one of the calls the referee made.

ML: It wasn’t one of my guys but there was one guy who was fighting one of the Gracie’s. But I remember there was one guy fighting Ryron Gracie, his name was Rick McCauley, and the referee blew a call on Rick’s sweep from half-guard. And I don’t care what your last name is; it should be a fair level playing field for everyone. But a lot of times the refs are like “oh-my-G-d, I can’t do anything against the Gracies’.” Get over the name man, it’s two human being out there competing under the same set of rules. Call it down the line and quit giving favoritism for a person’s last name.

He ended up getting submitted but he had to play a different strategy because he was down on points and depending on what the points are determines how you have to play and sometimes you get forced into doing things that you wouldn’t normally do and I think he fell victim to that.

JR: Thanks for the feedback. I was always wondering what you were thinking during that situation.

ML: He’s [Rick McCauley] just a guy that I think has a good half guard and has very good leg locks and I like the guys who are up-and-comers and I’ve been watching him for a while and I just wanted it to be fair and everyone else was rooting against him. And I like guys that go out there and compete and put everything on the line and he was just getting dicked over on the points and everyone was afraid to say something and I’m not afraid to speak out for what’s right. What’s right is right and he was getting the shaft and somebody had to say something and I did.

JR: Here’s kind of an interesting question—I asked Travis Lutter this once: Do you think MMA is changing the way students are promoted in jiu-jitsu? There are many MMA fighters that do not compete in grappling tournaments and yet they still get promoted? What factors does a jiu-jitsu instructor use to determine whether a promotion is warranted if the student is learning jiu-jitsu for MMA and not for pure jiu-jitsu?

ML: You can still compete in jiu-jitsu, so long as the competition is not too close to one of your upcoming fights. The UFC for example, doesn’t want you to get injured. I have my guys compete as much as humanly possible.

The guys I’m working with right now are the “Team Takedown” guys, who are very high level wrestlers. I think it’s very important for them to do jiu-jitsu tournaments, so they get used to squeezing. They’re good at taking people down but they have to get good at passing people’s guard—you know things that are important for MMA. Tournaments are a good way for them to go out there and not damage their professional record and experiment with technique. Competing is a very valuable tool for them.

What I can kind of gather from your question is I think a lot of people are getting promoted based on “No-Gi” things and there’s really no point in giving a guy a belt if he’s not competing in a gi because the belt is what’s holding your gi together. If you’re just training in shorts and a t-shirt, what do you need a belt for? You’re either good or you’re not. I think people need a way to make money with their martial arts thing but I think a lot of these people are diluting what belt they’re at.

There’s been various things on the internet where people have been getting promoted from white belt to brown belt to black in less than two years and it’s absolutely ridiculous. I think the standard has fallen a bit. I don’t do that. The only fighter that I have that’s a blue belt is Johny Hendricks; he got promoted a little while ago. He’s been training in a gi and he’s been tapping a lot of guys in the gi with gi moves, and he actually understands the gi and he enjoys it. It’s a break from his normal training and he’s actually taken quite well to it.

But these other guys could give two shits what their belt is. He thinks it’s cool because he’s got his gi and his blue belt and he’s actually going to do some gi competitions. It’s something else he can do that will benefit him but it’s not his main focus in life like winning the UFC championship. That’s what these guys’ goal is, to win UFC gold, that’s what everyone wants, that’s the pinnacle of the sport. That’s what people should strive for if you’re competing in MMA.

The grappling on the other hand is something good to get involved in, but that’s not what these guys are focusing on. But I think a lot of people are getting promoted rather quickly… A lot of guys are being promoted rather quickly and they might be able to tap people but I think one of the things that’s important if you’re getting promoted in jiu-jitsu is being able to transfer that knowledge to the next generation. A lot of these guys that I see that are getting promoted are missing a lot of key details in their teaching. It’s kind of getting to be like a Tae Kwon Do thing.

Back-in-the-day, it meant something just to be a purple belt. Nowadays, everybody has a purple belt and these guys are getting their black belts handed to them like you can find in a Cracker Jacks box or like you can get in a Happy Meal at McDonalds. I don’t do that with my students—I have a pretty high standard for promoting guys and I don’t just hand things out. But that’s just me. Other people are also pretty stingy with their promotions and others are just giving them [belts] away.

And for me, it’s also based on the individual: If you have a forty-five-year-old guy that  doesn’t compete but he’s in the gym every day trying to better his game and he’s still giving guys a good, solid training session, I think that’s a lot different than a talented twenty-one or twenty-two-year-old guy. Guys like that should be competing and testing themselves and that’s a real good way to get promoted. Everyone is different and people are at different stages in life.

If you’re a UFC fighter and that’s your goal, I don’t think being promoted is very important. But it’s really important to work on getting those fundamentals down and considering what’s going to apply to MMA.

JR: Thank you for your response and I completely respect your perspective on this issue. One thing in particular that comes to mind for me is the difference in passing the guard when you have MMA weapons at your disposal in contrast to pure grappling techniques.

ML: That’s definitely true, but I’ve seen a lot of black belts that fight MMA that once they get on top of someone they go into straight jiu-jitsu mode and I don’t think that’s the best thing to do; I think it’s better to blend your punches with the passes and really making it real mixed martial arts, not just where you are fighting in one mode of combat.

It’s called mixed martial arts for a reason and the guys that are successful have a real good blend of it, like George St. Pierre. I think his passing is real good because he mixes it with punches. Also, his takedowns are really good because he sets them up with his punches. There’s a lot to mixing the martial arts to make it as effective as possible.

JR: Who are some of your top students?

ML: Do you mean in jiu-jitsu competition or fighters?

JR: Guys that have trained under your system and have become successful in either grappling tournaments or MMA?

ML: Sim Go, he’s a Filipino kid that started when he was 15 years old. I’ve pretty much worked with him every day, he’s very dedicated. I can’t take credit for his stuff, I mean I helped him but he’s the one in the gym every day, training. Scott Bieri started with me when I was in Hawaii and he’s real good; both of those guys have won a lot of tournaments. Sean Spangler, Sonny Nohara, Aqueel Quadree, and Chris Holdsworth, moved out here a couple of years ago and he’s been training with me a lot. I’ve got a few up-and-comers like Adrian Ramirez and he’s real tough.

As far as MMA guys go, I’ve worked with a lot of people in the past. I kind of got burnt out on it because everybody I was dealing with never quite had it; something was always lacking—they always wanted to go out and party. They’re into fighting because they want to become famous. They’re lazy fucks and they don’t have what it takes or they don’t listen. I’ve run the gamut of guys that have problems.

Fortunately for me, this year I started working with some guys that I truly believe in and are totally dedicated. They’re not fighting to be famous, but to be the best in the world. And I can guarantee that they’ll be holding world titles in the near future.

I’ve got Jake Rosholt at 185 lbs who is a beast; he’s a three-time Division One National Champion wrestler. He doesn’t like to party. The only thing he enjoys doing outside of fighting is hunting; he’s a hunting nerd, and that’s what he loves to do and he just happens to be a very gifted wrestler and he’s one of the quickest rising stars in MMA.

I have Johnny Hendricks who’s a two-time NCAA National Champ in wrestling and he’s going to be fighting in the next WEC on December 3rd, and Shane Roller will also be fighting on that same card. All of these guys are very dedicated athletes that are paid to train. They are set up to succeed, they have a great management team—“Team Takedown”—behind them. I’m real dedicated to their progress, they get privates from me and I’m overseeing their entire mixed martial arts training.

These guys are going to be the future of the sport. The guys that are fighting to be famous are a dying breed… It’s going to be this new generation. We saw Brock Lesnar come in who’s a real athlete; you’ve got guys like Mo Lawal over in Japan who’s a sick athlete… accomplished collegiate wrestler; and then you’ve got these guys from “Team Takedown” that are just very high level guys that are going to start crushing the competition.

They are the future, they are the people that are going to be ushering in the new generation of MMA. And a lot of people are getting real hurt and sad when they have to see their heroes lose, but they should really be happy because it’s the new generation that’s going to make the fights more exciting for the fans.

Instead of seeing guys that aren’t very athletic, you get to see higher level athletes coming in here that are born to fight. And it’s very exciting to see high level athletes competing at the sport’s highest level; to coach guys like that is an honor.

JR: Who do you think will win the Nogueira v Mir fight? Why?

ML: Anything can happen in a fight, but I think Frank’s only chance of winning would be if he gets a knock out or a submission very early in the match.

Nogueira has shown a few signs of being susceptible to leg locks in MMA and grappling and Frank is pretty good at leg locks. Nogueira has a better overall MMA skill set—I think he’s a better striker.

Frank has shown a tendency of not being able to bounce back very well when the fight isn’t going his way; he doesn’t do very well when faced with adversity. Also, Frank’s conditioning has always been suspect; I don’t think he can go five rounds.

Nogueira, on the other hand, is on the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of facing adversity. He’s shown a remarkable ability to come back in numerous fights when he’s faced with adversity, whether it’s being power-bombed on his head by Bob Sapp or getting kicked in the head by Heath Herring and coming back to win.

If I had to bet, I’d bet on Nogueira.

Also, Frank’s conditioning has always been suspect; I don’t think he can go five rounds. In contrast, looking at the way Nogueira fights, I think he’s shown good conditioning and I think he can go five rounds.

JR: Do you think Frank’s kicking ability will be a factor at all, considering he has a Karate background, and has flexible and powerful legs; that coupled with Nogueira not being known for throwing many kicks?

ML: I don’t think so—I mean it could, he could knock him out with a head kick. But if you’re betting on fights, which includes playing the odds, I don’t see that as being a very big factor. The likelihood of that happening is low.

I do think Nogueira’s hands are much better than Frank’s.

JR: Do you think Mir has the ability to go into the fight and chop down Nogueira’s legs with kicks?

ML: No, I don’t. If Frank goes out there and tries to kick his legs… If you’ve ever seen Nogueira fight Sanae Kikuta, he was trying to leg kick Nogueira’s, Nogueira caught his leg kick and threw a straight punch right down the pipe and knocked him out!

And I think the same thing could happen to Frank, or I tend to think Nogueira could catch it and put him down and if Nogueira puts him down, it’s pretty much game-over from there; he puts a lot of pressure on the pass.

I didn’t think Nogueira was that big until I actually saw him and he’s actually a pretty big dude, and I don’t think Frank’s going to be able to muscle Nogueira. And I just think Nogueira’s jiu-jitsu is much better than Frank’s; if it hits the mat, I think Nogueira will take advantage of him from there. He would get a dominant position and either pound him out or finish him with a submission.

JR: During Season 8 of the “The Ultimate Fighter,” there was some debate about Nogueira’s level of jiu-jitsu. The issue broiled into an argument between Nogueira and Team Mir member, Vinny Magalhaes What are your thoughts on that?

ML: Nogueira and his brother were doing pretty well back-in-the-day, around 1999-2000. At that time they were still pretty active competitors and they were still fighting MMA.

I think Vinny’s jiu-jitsu is really top notch; he’s right up there; he’s got multiple world titles to his credit; he’s really good. But I think Nogueira’s also really good, they were just competing at different times.

I think Nogueira’s focus shifted from being a jiu-jitsu practitioner to being an MMA fighter. He then went over to Japan and found a lot of success in Rings and then went into Pride and went on quite a tear, just beating everybody and tapping them.

There’s no telling where his jiu-jitsu would be if his focus hadn’t shifted to fighting. And what’s Vinny’s record in MMA—2-2? Just because you’re good at jiu-jitsu doesn’t mean you’re going to be a good MMA fighter.

I like Nogueira’s attributes—his heart and his belief in his ability to win is right up there with some of the best guys and that’s one of those intangible qualities that you don’t see in the statistics sheet.

JR: Who do you think will win the Penn v Florian fight?

ML: I think B.J. will win. There’s such a big difference between number one and number two in that division that it’s kind of like how it is for Anderson at 185 lbs and kind of like it’s been for GSP at 170 lbs.

You know, I think Thiago Alves is going to be an interesting fight with GSP. But B.J. is so much better than everyone else at 155 lbs, it’s really amazing.

If you look at the UFC roster at 185 lbs, Anderson is just head-and-shoulders above everyone else in that division. These guys [B.J., GSP, and Anderson Silva] are just so much ahead of the game that they have to go up in weight divisions to find people to challenge themselves.

I just don’t see Florian being able to beat B.J. I mean anything can happen in a fight, but if I had to bet, I’d bet on B.J. for sure.

Penn’s MMA guard-passing is the sickest shit on the planet; and it’s been like eight years now since he’s been doing it and still no one mimics what he does. He’s got the sickest passing, his hands are real good, his wrestling is good, his counter-wrestling is real good—if he puts Florian down, I think he’s going to be passed, mounted, and either being on his back choking him or pounding him out from a dominant position.

JR: We see applications of the rubber guard in MMA. Why don’t we see more fighters employing a larger part of the rubber guard system in their fights? In theory, the system seems very effective if used properly.

ML: I think you’re starting to see some fighters use it, but a lot of guys don’t dedicate a lot of time to practicing it, plus you don’t have a lot of real good teachers teaching it. It’s going to take time for Bravo to get his system out there… to get competent teachers.

Back when I was training there weren’t that many good American teachers, but nowadays you’ve got a lot of guys that have gone through the steps to get their black belt. And now there are a lot of good teachers out there; a lot more than when I was coming up. I just think you need some good teachers; you need some guys that are going to listen and believe in it.

I think it has it’s time and place in its use for MMA, but I definitely think you need a certain body type and certain level of flexibility to properly apply some of those techniques. I think it works for a lot of people, but certain people, it’s not going to be the best suited thing for them.

JR: Do you teach students rubber guard techniques at Cobra Kai?

I teach certain aspects of it. But, you know, everyone is different. The biggest thing is I don’t have a mold that people have to fit into. I see what people have, I see what attributes they bring to the table and I try to custom make a game for them.

It’s like if you’re looking for clothes, you can go to Wal-Mart and everyone can buy the same clothes. But at the highest level of fashion, you go and have custom clothes made for you and your body type. And that’s what I try to do; I’m kind of like a high-end tailor that is looking at what you have and what you bring to the table and how I can maximize what you have.

The real difficulty as a coach is not trying to get people to conform to you but trying to conform to them and work with their strengths and weaknesses and tailor-make a system for them.

JR: Injuries are common place in martial arts training, have you suffered any serious injuries on the mat? If so, did any of your injuries affect your jiu-jitsu game?

ML: Yeah, I hurt my back a couple of years ago and it’s still never healed. It’s kind of limited my ability to train consistently and that’s why I’m kind of a fat fuck right now.

I also have a real bad toe injury that’s been going on over a year and it’s never healed. I get it worked on a lot—I guess it’s like Turf Toe or something—and it is a very painful injury.

I used to laugh at toe injuries and after I got this one… it is very painful. It doesn’t really stop me from training but I have to make alterations in how I place my foot and what not. But my back is something I can’t quite get around. I still train, but I don’t get to train at as high a level as I used to.

It’s been a very painful ordeal—I’m in pain almost every day of my life; I kind of walk funny… for me to put on a pair of shorts is a little bit of an ordeal. But I deal with it; I do the best that I can. Fortunately, my competition is behind me; I’m not trying to prove anything to anybody else or myself. I feel like I’ve accomplished what I wanted. Of course, there are some titles I would have liked to won but I’m not going to get hung up on that.

My goal right now is to produce the best students for jiu-jitsu and MMA as humanly possible and that’s my passion in life and that’s what I’m driven to do. I kind of live vicariously through their accomplishments. I’m not trying to do anything myself—I want to focus on them and that’s what I think a teacher should do.

JR: How important is flexibility training for jiu-jitsu practitioners? Do you practice a lot of stretching and do you stress the importance of stretching to your students?

ML: Certain types of flexibility are important like getting your hips flexible, but I never stretch anyone out. You can get more flexible, but you either got it or you don’t. You can improve it to a degree, but some of my guys are so tight in their hips and back… I work on some stretches.

But when I get them in a room, I’m not trying to wear them out with stretching and calisthenics; they do that on their own time. I kind of let their personal trainer work with them on that aspect. When I get them I’m focused on getting them to understand technique and working on them getting to apply it under duress. That’s kind of what my facet of training involves.

JR: Who do you think is the best jiu-jitsu practitioner out there today?

ML: In MMA or in general?

JR: In general.

ML: That would be B.J. Penn and Marcelo Garcia. I guess you could say Roger Gracie, but I’ve never trained with Roger, I’ve trained with Marcelo and B.J. and those guys are just head-and-shoulders above everybody else. They have different style games, but when you’re wrestling with them, you know that there’s something special.

JR: How do you think Fedor would fair against Lesnar?

ML: I think right now, I think Fedor could beat him just because he’s more complete.

After Brock fought Frank Mir, I said within a year, Brock will be the UFC heavyweight champion. And I’m not very good with predictions but that one did come true. And I think if you give Brock some more time to work his guard-passing and controlling an individual, I think he could beat Fedor.

I think right now Fedor’s hands are pretty sick, but I think Fedor’s weakness is going to be if he gets taken down and gets controlled on the mat and gets his guard passed and mounted… we saw Mark Coleman do that to him. Once you get a guy who can establish that kind of control and understands the importance of those positions… I think Lesnar has a potential recipe to beat Fedor in the near future.

I can’t give you an exact time frame, but I think with enough training… that guy is pretty dedicated and I’m just going on assumptions here, but I think he’s definitely got potential to beat him. But right now…? If you put them in a ring tomorrow, I think Fedor would have his number. Six months-to-a-year from now, I think Brock has a much greater chance of beating Fedor. And two years from now, almost guaranteed, Brock would beat him.

The thing about these wrestlers is they have such a good work ethic, they are totally dedicated and the only thing they know is to win; they’re used to being alone on that island out there; that hard work is bred into them at an early age. And that guy is a Division One NCAA wrestling champion and that’s an accomplishment. He’s super talented and has a great work ethic—guys like that are going to be moving the sport in the near future.

Jacob Regar is a law school graduate and is the independent lead writer for American Stand Up. He is also a practicing martial artist with a blue belt in Brazilian jiu jitsu. Presently, he co-writes a weekly blog for MMAJunkie.com about Ken Hahn’s experience as an assistant coach for “Team Mir” on Spike TV’s “TUF8.”